forzainter escribió:El mejor talento puro que jamás nació es Maradona, creo que eso no pueda estar en duda.. luego hay gustos personales y ahí todas las opiniones son respetables
Para mi en puro nível + consistencia es Pelé.
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Pelé's case as a GOAT happens because he played great games against big teams and not because he scored a bunch of goals against non-comparable teams.
Pelé is the GOAT because at 16 he was already scoring against Argentina, because with 16 he was already the main goalscorer of the perhaps best team of the world at that time, because with 17 he was already the most impactful and influential player in the World Cup KO phase to secure the first world title for the most winning nation of all time, because with 17 he already established the maximum level of goalscoring one player could even reach in all Brazilian competitions (66 goals), because with 18 years old he was already MVP and topscorer of a Copa América.
It is because he also had iconic games in all WCs he played, because he scored in all main finals he played, be in the Libertadores, the World Cup or Intercontinentais. Because his gpg for Santos is unparalled between top forwards (over 10 matches) in the Copa Libertadores in all history, because his record of goals and assists against the top nations (England, Argentina, Italy, Spain, France, Germany) is unparalled as well. Because no one team apart of his Santos team in Brazil won five Brazilian titles in a row, because no one team apart of his Santos won eight titles of Campeonato Paulista in one decade (Barcelona won six in the last decade).
Messi vs Pelé
Because his goal contribution in the highest level was otherworldly:
Big Stages
Pelé ---> World Cup Qualification and Copa América (data is incomplete), World Cup, Libertadores, Intercontinental
44 Matches, 137 Goals
Pelé = 50 Goals, 26 Assists.
Messi ==> WC Qualification, WC, KO Champions League, Copa América
159 Matches (68 Barcelona Matches, 91 Argentina Matches), 286 Goals (154 Argentina Goals, 132 Barcelona Goals)
Messi 46 Goals, 13 Assists for Barcelona, 36 Goals, 20 Assists for Argentina.
Messi's case as the best player of his generation is largely based on his La Liga form where he was the focal point and main shooter of a Barcelona that was consistently stronger than his rival Real Madrid and much much stronger than the other teams on average.
Data from Campeonato Paulista (1960-1969)
226 Matches, 163 W (72% Win Percentage), 35 D, 28 L with Pelé (2.32 Points) 3.03 Goals for with Pelé, 1.22 Goals against. Pelé scored 1.30 Goals per match or 295 Goals.
68 Matches, 39 W (57% Win Percentage, Palmeiras 60%, Corinthians 54%, São Paulo 51%), 15 D, 14 L without Pelé (1.94 Points) 2.26 Goals for without Pelé, 1.22 Goals against.
Data from La Liga (2010/2011 to the 'incomplete' current season 2019/2020)
309 Matches, 232 W (75% Win Percentage), 53 D, 24 L with Messi (2.42 Points) 2.79 Goals for with Messi, 0.79 Goals Against. Messi scored 1.07 Goals per match or 331 Goals.
35 Matches, 27 W (77% Win Percentage, Real Madrid 71%, Atlético de Madrid 59%, Sevilla 45%), 2 D, 6 L without Messi (2.37 Points), 2.68 Goals for without Messi, 0.97 Goals Against.
Messi's case as the best player of this generation decreases a lot when you look at International tournaments and you have another player winning more titles as a key piece with more goals and assists in the decisive phases of these tournaments and where his teams were also bullied a lot less as well.